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'73/1500

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Re: '73/1500

Postby BusBq Bill » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:12 pm

waldbaums, peanut oil crisco brand only works :lol:
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:16 pm

Well, after all this oil talk, I'm a lazy bum and still haven't changed the oil :oops: .....it's now like a 100 miles short of the 3k mark so I'll do it either today or tomorrow.....kind of crazy that we've put 3k miles on the engine in about 6 weeks!

But we've been on a bunch of little road trips....this weekend we put over 500 miles on it going to the Finger Lakes and back. Since I didn't have the Squareback to distract me (it's been nice to be able to think about the bug just being reliable transportation!) I was able to pay attention to some of the eccentricities of the engine and we managed to break down....

Here's an incredibly long post about all the stuff that went down. Any advice or pointers would be awesome...


--The oil light barely comes on after driving in the cooler night-time temps upstate and it goes off quickly after coming to stop signs or lights. Seems like it's definitely an issue then of too thin of an oil and the high temperatures so I'll get on it.

--We have a small oil leak at the distributor....Raj.....I don't know if you're reading this but that day I dropped off your tools you noticed it and asked me if it was fresh oil and I said I didn't think so....but it definitely is. The side of the case to the left of the distributor is wet w/ oil and it collects on the tin. It's a very small amount (I only had to add a pint of oil after about 1,800k miles) but when I wipe it away, it returns. What could be up with that and what to do?

--The distributor gets mad hot after a highway drive. I'd noticed this before but thought it might be a feature of the older cast iron distributors that they "hold" heat more. Is that true? Now that I've confirmed an oil leak I'm a little worried.

--Last night, at around 10pm when we were still about 3 hrs away from home there was a sudden change in exhaust sound like we developed a hole in the muffler. Pulled into a rest stop and something was loud as hell back there. Checked out the muffler and all was good. Panicked that something went wrong w/ the valves and popped the cover but all was good. Car wasn't running too hot and there was only the loud sound like backfiring and it was late so we kept going.

--Pulled over again after an hour or so as the sound got a little louder. Checked all exhaust connections and they were tight and clean (no soot).

--Drove from about the Poconos area to near the Lincoln tunnel. Jessica drove and I kept an ear open for sounds. I concluded that it wasn't an exhaust problem (sounded fine mostly when coasting) but an intake problem.....the carb on the 1/2 side was backfiring like crazy and getting worse. We had to slow down for some tolls....sounded like shit and stalled at the toll booth. Was backfiring so badly it was undriveable b/c the car was bucking. Pulled over after the booth and got to work.

--Thought maybe we had a vacuum leak. Tightened down the intake manifold to the head and made sure the carb was firm to the manifold. Looked down the carb throat but everything looked fine. Started it up and it ran better but was still backfiring. WTF?

--At some point, it started to run better.....we were so tired I don't remember when I did it but it turns out I had unplugged the #2 plug wire and THAT improved things. It still backfired but it was driveable so we drove through the Lincoln Tunnel, across Manhattan, through the Midtown Tunnel and back to Brooklyn on 3 cylinders.

So what could explain all of that?

I definitely noticed some popping in the carbs when having to go down steep hills in low gears in camp sites and stuff but nothing too crazy....or at least nothing that said "after 2 hrs of driving home one of your carbs will begin backfiring loudly".

My theory is that the distributor gets hot b/c I didn't put enough grease on the cam and there's friction at the rubbing block of the points....the rubbing block has worn down, the dwell is off which means the the timing is off, which means we're backfiring.

I'll investigate today but if anyone could chime in that'd be awesome. I figured I'll just go through the whole tune up procedure and if that doesn't fix it then it's on to investigating the carbs themselves.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:34 pm

Wow. Well written post if I can start off by saying that.

Dist leaking.
What distributor is this? 019 right? rebuild by GR? I have never touched my distributor after a lot ride, but 'mad hot' doesnt sound good. I'll check my baja after I drive home tonight form work ( only 15 miles maybe) Does it have a fresh grommet on the shaft of the drive?

try popping out the distributor and spinning it. Any resistance, noise, etc?

Loose head.
Did you say you tightened the intake to the head? How loose was it. Sounds like your sucking air, and at this point if the intake was loose, you may need a new intake gasket. Use locking nuts on the intake or lock washers or some lock tight. That may help. This is one reason why some hate dual carbs

Didnt you change the rockers? Have you adjusted the valves since? As things settle they need to be re tweeked. Give it a whirl.

Please change the oil. Its a fresh rebuilt and prob would love to be flushed out.

keep us posted
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Glenn » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:58 pm

Bring the distributor by an i'll check it out and fix it if needed.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:10 pm

Raj wrote:Wow. Well written post if I can start off by saying that.

Dist leaking.
What distributor is this? 019 right? rebuild by GR? I have never touched my distributor after a lot ride, but 'mad hot' doesnt sound good. I'll check my baja after I drive home tonight form work ( only 15 miles maybe) Does it have a fresh grommet on the shaft of the drive?

try popping out the distributor and spinning it. Any resistance, noise, etc?

Loose head.
Did you say you tightened the intake to the head? How loose was it. Sounds like your sucking air, and at this point if the intake was loose, you may need a new intake gasket. Use locking nuts on the intake or lock washers or some lock tight. That may help. This is one reason why some hate dual carbs

Didnt you change the rockers? Have you adjusted the valves since? As things settle they need to be re tweeked. Give it a whirl.

Please change the oil. Its a fresh rebuilt and prob would love to be flushed out.

keep us posted


Thanks Raj.....

This is an official Glenn Ring 019 and it had a new o-ring on the shaft. Back when we put it in, it went into the case w/ resistance and seemed a tight fit so it seems a surprising place for an oil leak. It's also a new distributor clamp and the dist. sits firmly in the case. Maybe the o-ring is split though. I'll check.

Wish I had some actual temp readings as "hot to the touch" means different things to different hands but let's just say that I was surprised by it.....felt at least as hot as when the dipstick gets hot after a long drive on a summer night. Thing is, like you, I don't normally go around touching the distributor after a long drive so I don't know what's normal.

I did tighten the intake to the head. One nut was quite loose, the other less so. I used those metal gaskets that come in the Elring engine kit during the original install.

The FI guys on the Type 3 forums schooled me against using those. At least for FI intake runners, 1/4" or cereal box gaskets with Permatex aviation on both sides is the way to go. I'll redo the intakes that way just to seal it up good. It definitely cured some vacuum leaks we had on the Square....oddly, vacuum leaks cause FI to run rich. But that's for another thread.....

Will keep you posted.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Glenn » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:45 pm

D-A-N wrote:cereal box gaskets

HACK

FI engines use a phenolic spacer/gasket. These prevent heat transfer from the head to the intake manifold. Part number is 311 129 707 C

They seem to be hard to find.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:59 pm

Glenn wrote:
D-A-N wrote:cereal box gaskets

HACK

FI engines use a phenolic spacer/gasket. These prevent heat transfer from the head to the intake manifold. Part number is 311 129 707 C

They seem to be hard to find.



Sorry....I meant cereal box gaskets on EITHER SIDE of the phenolic spacer.....they are a PITA to find but we've got 2 good ones!
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:21 pm

Hmmm.... Maybe the heat you felt in the distributor is simply conduction of the heat form the case/ warm engine. Pull the dist and see if you see some issue. Maybe try some aftermarket style thicker gaskets on the intakes too.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Glenn » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:40 pm

You shouldn't need any additional gaskets. If you want i have Berg paper gasket... same as I use.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:12 pm

Ok....well, it seems we used the paper gaskets the first time around so I replaced them with metal this time. Torqued the manifolds down to 14 ft/lbs, checked that the carb was torqued to the manifold and started her up. NO CHANGE! Still loud, popping, and sluggish and ran better on 3 cylinders.

We couldn't do a valve adjustment b/c the neighbors opened the fire hydrant for the kids and the gutter was a river and I wasn't trying to go swimming with the cigarette butts.

However, I pulled the distributor and brought it inside. The o-ring is fine, shaft spins well, etc. There's a bit of up and down movement in the shaft though. Is this normal? Never had a mech. only distributor before....

What was abnormal is that is was pretty darn hot for a drive around the block for parking when we were done working.

I checked the points with a feeler gauge.....they were at .006 so they were off by a hundredth of an inch from .016!!!!

Doesn't this seem like at least half the problem??

Tomorrow A.M. I'll be able to do a full tune up so we'll see.

Glenn...I'd like some of that gasket paper if possible and even for you to look at the distributor if you have time....only thing is neither of our cars is fully operational right now....if the tune-up solves the problem though I'll assume the dist. is fine.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Glenn » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:15 pm

There should not be any up/down movement. Maybe one of the fiber washers broke.

Let me know when you can come by. I'll fix it and give you 4 paper gaskets.

Should only take a few minutes to fix.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:14 am

Glenn wrote:There should not be any up/down movement. Maybe one of the fiber washers broke.

Let me know when you can come by. I'll fix it and give you 4 paper gaskets.

Should only take a few minutes to fix.


Ok.

Hopefully, I can get this thing running well enough to drop by sooner than later.

Does it sound reasonable to assume that if I adjust the valves, fix the problem of the points barely opening by re-gapping them, and then re-time the thing that I should be able to get rid of the backfire?
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:25 am

Ill be honest, I dont think its a valve adjustment unless something material occurs with the valve train ( broken spring etc)

My money is on intake leak. Spray the base of the intakes with some starting fuel and watch for change in engine speed.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:37 am

Raj wrote:Ill be honest, I dont think its a valve adjustment unless something material occurs with the valve train ( broken spring etc)

My money is on intake leak. Spray the base of the intakes with some starting fuel and watch for change in engine speed.


Will do. But I'll use carb cleaner. Isn't it a bit less combustible?

But don't you think the extremely tight point gap (.006) could have something to do with the backfiring too?

If the points aren't staying open long enough then ignition is all messed up, etc....

I don't mean that to counter your advice. Just to add that I'm going to try a new set of points and re-time the thing in addition to what you mention. With my luck, the intake is probably cracked.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:26 am

It could be but Id question how you put 3k miles on the motor with them gapped as is. Its unlikely they moved by themselves. Hey...crazier stuff has happened.

No worries on the 'counter', thats what the forum is for. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

BTW... when I got home last night... the distributor was warm, but not hot like the headers
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:58 am

Ok....it's hot as hell outside so we're taking a break. Here's a little update.....

Both valves on #2 were INCREDIBLY loose. These aren't stock rockers so the adjusting screw is longer but the adjusting nuts were maybe only a few turns from backing all the way off!!

I'm not quite sure how it happened. Last week the valves were in spec and at no point over the last week or even over the weekend or even over the course of the day on our drive on Sunday was there any change or increase in valve noise. Like I think I mentioned in my first post about this, the change in sound was really abrupt.

Maybe the adjusting nuts were just too loose and on the drive on Sunday they finally backed off to a "critical point" and started causing the backfiring which got worse and worse the looser they got?

Any chance of lasting damage as a result of this? And if so, what?

In a little bit we're going back out to time it (28*-30* @ 3000 rpm right?) and see how she runs after that.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Tom » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:42 pm

Were they loose enough that the pushrods weren't opening and closing the valves ? If so that would do it.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Brown » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:07 pm

Simple questions, were the nuts loose when you just checked the valve adjustment? on number 2?

Also did you check all of the other valves? Rotating the engine each time to be sure you were at TDC for that cylinder?
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:21 pm

good points ken. Assumptions can get the best of us all.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:21 pm

Tom...the pushrod was barely in the cup on the #2 intake and totally out of it on the exhaust. :shock:

Brown...the nuts may have been loose when I last checked the valves but I didn't notice. Since they're at the bottom of the rocker arm on these ratio rockers and I didn't have to make any adjustments, I didn't bother with the nuts. I have to get used to that.....on stock rockers you'd definitely be in contact with the nuts (why does that sound weird?) when checking valves but on these not unless you're making an adjustment.

Also, when we pulled over on the highway I popped the valve cover, rotated the engine (valves opened and closed) looked at everything (didn't touch b/c it was hot), and didn't notice the nuts being that far off. My guess is that they got to the point they were at today as we kept driving to the point where the car really only ran well w/ the #2 wire unplugged. I'm getting the feeling that we really dodged a bullet here b/c now it's running like a dream. No backfiring, smooth idle, etc.

Only three things now are:

1. the distributor is uncomfortably hot after a short run (maybe tomorrow Glenn?)

2. running a bit rich (must have jostled the mixture screw when the carb was off yesterday)

3. 1/2 intake manifold is COLD to the touch but not icing whereas the 3/4 side is hot. I haven't touched the manifolds recently so I don't know if this is a new or old issue. I was so glad to at least hear the car run well after timing it that we ran out to celebrate with a beer so the leak hunting will have to wait a bit.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:51 pm

wow..... nice find. Be careful with your nuts my friend.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:14 pm

Raj wrote:wow..... nice find. Be careful with your nuts my friend.


Don't worry....my nuts are in good hands.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Glenn » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:34 pm

D-A-N wrote:1. the distributor is uncomfortably hot after a short run (maybe tomorrow Glenn?)

I'll be home in the afternoon but have to leave at 5:30.
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Re: '73/1500

Postby D-A-N » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:49 am

So life in the Brooklyn division of DVG has been pretty crummy since we got back from our trip. The Squareback still only runs well enough to park and now the beetle is out of commission. Here's another semi-epic account of where we're at:

On Wednesday, we were supposed to get out to Glenn to see about the distributor. In the A.M., we double-checked the dwell (44*) and timing (30* BTDC @ 3500rpm). A bit of black smoke coming out of the exhaust. Running rich. Carbs wouldn't idle well below 1300rpm (!!!!) and it wanders b/w 1300-1400 but it was driveable. Or so we thought b/c we wanted to get to the bottom of the distributor problem.

After a few minutes of driving, we started bucking almost like we were having a fuel delivery problem so we had to call the trip off. We took a backroad detour through Queens and pulled over to tinker b/w a graveyard and the BQE near where the NYPD impounds cars.

Of course that's when the huge thunderstorms began and we spent the next 2 hours inside the car waiting for the hail and lightning to pass.

What a day that was......defeated b/c we couldn't get to Glenn, soaked, and wondering what kind of fools own two non-running "classic" cars and don't have a garage.

When it finally cleared a bit, we checked the dwell and timing, neither of which had changed. As an "experiment" we retarded the timing a bit to 29*. We also replaced the coil which we were already planning on doing b/c ours had been getting hot as hell which didn't seem right. Still wouldn't idle well at low RPM and was wandering in the 13-1400 zone but we were able to drive around Queens a bit. All the popping from the other day is gone and the bucking that made us pull over in the first place disappeared. Definitely not as peppy as before all the problems, but we were able to get back home w/o incident.

When parked, our coil was no longer flaming hot but the distributor was "pull your hand away quickly so you don't burn your finger" hot. The pulley and the case around the dist. was also very hot but I don't normally go feeling around there so maybe that's normal?

Glenn....maybe we should just mail the distributor to you?

Here's where we are w/ the carbs:

--Once it stopped raining yesterday, we decided to go out and treat the carbs like they were new and begin the adjustments from scratch.

--1/2 side (where we had the valve and backfire problem) responded well to mixture and idle adjustments.

--3/4 checked out good too.

--Got idle down to a high 1100 b/c it seems happiest there.

--However, there's still black smoke out the exhuast on start up and little bits of it on idle.

--There's a hiss like a vacuum leak coming out the top of the 1/2 carb. Motor still runs fine even when I fully covered the 1/2 carb w/ my hand.

--Sprayed carb with carb cleaner and the idle DECREASES when I sprayed around the throttle body.

--Sprayed it down the throat and the engine stalled.

--There's an exhaust leak at the donut gasket on the 1/2 side.

--Drove it to a parking spot and even though idle was good, it wanted to stall. Linkage is adjusted and butterflies are opening/closing in sync.

--Stalled while parking.

I'll check the fuel pressure today but it seems like even if there is a pressure problem, that the 1/2 carb is screwed up and will have to be sent back to Kaddie Shack for a checkup.

Wishing I hadn't disassembled our old engine in the meantime and/or had started building a new one already. Or had a backup carb system at least. Grrrrrrr.

Any recommendations/suggestions/etc?

How come none of yous live in Brooklyn. Or Queens even? :cry:
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Re: '73/1500

Postby Raj » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:00 pm

When you cover the 3/4 side carb with ur hand.... Does the engine speed change?

Any change in idle speed when u spray the base to intake mannifold areas?


There's def an issue with 1/2 carb ifppens when u cover it completely with ur hand
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