'73/1500

[beetlejessica]

Hi there,

My husband and I discovered a problem today and posted about it on the Samba. We were talking about why we never post on Das Volks and we realized it was because we were a little afraid. We own the car of a former member who was (is?) well regarded in the local community and we always felt a little guilty posting about the problems we were having as if she might read them...my husband is originally from Long Island and we live in Brooklyn so that all adds up to a lot of unnecessary "regional guilt". Well...we've had the car for 10,000 miles and it feels so much like ours that it's easier to post now so I hope after this little intro someone might have some insight into our problem.

We have a rebuilt 1500 (HO case) in our '73 standard bug. Last weekend, when doing a routine oil change and valve adjustment, we noticed some side-to-side play in the rocker arm for the exhaust valve of cylinder #1. This weekend, we decided to remove the rocker arm assembly to add shims and otherwise stabilize that rocker arm. However, there was very little side play with the assembly off so we didn't add anything. We didn't have any problems until we noticed that one of the head studs looked sheared off at the top and was spinning in the case when we attempted to tighten it. All the other studs were torqued fine. Here's a picture of that stud:


(We never noticed it before, so as far as we know, it's always looked sheared off and we never found anything in the oil during oil changes, in the oil screen, or in the valve cover. We only noticed it because the rocker arm was off.)

As if that wasn't enough, when we put the rocker arm back on, our torque wrench never clicked and now we know not to buy important tools from Harbor Freight because now, while tight, the nuts will not tighten beyond a certain point, nor will they loosen which means that either the nut or the stud is stripped. Awesome.

This is our daily driver and we're not 100% sure what to do....we figure at the very least that we should buy new rocker studs and nuts. We found these: http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.ph ... cts_id=147 but we're not sure what the corresponding nut is...we assume it's this: http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?products_id=28 though they don't show it....

Presumably, one or both of these will solve the rocker problem, but we don't know what to do about the head stud. Does anyone out there have any idea what to do? Also, should we not be driving this thing until we resolve these issues or what?

Many many thanks for any advice you can give...and thanks even if you can't!
xoxo
Jessica and Daniel

[Glenn]

Jessica,

I've seen your car at GT and know the history of it.

If the head stud is spinning in the case then you have a real problem. There really isn't a way to fix it. You can get a self tapping stud in but they are just a band-aid. If the rocker stud is stripped then is it the head or the stud. The stud is hardened steel and the head is aluminum so it's generally the head that's the problem. If it's the stud, i'm sure someone on DVG can dig up a good used one and mail it to you.

Let us know exactly what the problems are and we'll try to help.

As to Harbor Freight.... "Cheapest is generally not the least expensive"

[beetlejessica]

Hi Glenn,

The last time we saw you at GT we were a little depressed because we had just been side-swiped the day before and were talking to Wayne about our options...Thankfully, that problem is long behind us.

...But we're not sure what to do with our current situation. We don't have any immediately detectable performance problems, but obviously it's not good to have a loose case stud and stripped rocker studs or nuts. Maybe the question is:
- do we order rocker studs and nuts, drive the car in the meantime, install studs and nuts when we get them and then figure out what to do about the case stud,
OR
- do we park the car and not drive it until some other solution (like new heads) presents itself?

OR
- do we get case savers inserted?

OR
- something else we haven't even thought of...?

Altogether, none of the options are great, but we wonder which one is most sensible.

[Glenn]

Driving it will only make things worse.

If the stud is stripped in the case, it's most likely time for new engine. Not sure if the 1500 had 10mm or 8mm studs. If they are 8mm then case savers might be able to be installed. You need to determine if the problem is the case for the head stud and the head for the rocker stud.

BTW... a 1500SP is not the original engine for a 73 Beetle, it should have a 1600DP.

And i know all about having car problems. I have my engine out for a knocking sound inside and my transmission has a broken gear.

You've got some hard choices to make and none are going to be cheap.

[beetlejessica]

I saw your post about your engine trouble....same side of the car as ours. Sounds like you're on track though while we're a little confused over here still about what the best first step is.

We're thinking we'll tackle the rocker stud/nut problem first. This stud isn't spinning in the head, but the nut is spinning on the stud. If we're lucky, it's just a stripped nut, if unlucky it's the stud or both the stud and nut but since the studs are less than $5 we can live with having to replace them even if it sounds like a big PITA to do. Presumably this will cure our rocker problems for the time being. Does this sound like a reasonable first step?

The case stud is obviously a bigger problem. We'd welcome a band aid and are crossing our fingers that we can use a case saver since we won't have the $ for a new long block or turnkey or whatever for a few months. Either way, how do we diagnose if the situation with the case stud is a problem with the case or the stud and whether or not a case saver will be possible?






It's funny that my husband thought it'd be fun for us to build a 1600DP for the car (since that's the engine it "should" have) over the winter. Now it looks like a necessity.

[Glenn]

The nut is just a M8x1.25 pitch, you can get it at a hardware store.

[Glenn A]

The head stud appears to be broken off at right at the head. If you are lucky the threads in the case are fine, just replace the stud. I guess it is also possible that the stud came out of the case already and the stud and nut got chewed up by the rocker. My guess is the later would have made some noise and left plenty of debris in the oil and valve cover. check out that head stud and see if it is still firm in the case.

[Raj]

Hi Jessica.

Nice to finally see you post. Sorry to hear about your issues. I agree that the rocker issue should be addressed first. Is there any stud left on it that will allow you to ' double nut it' and remove it? I'm nervous about vise grips or something. Like you said.... hopefully its just the nut
The spinning head stud is another issue. It is what it is, luckily you saw it. I'd say drive it as is, while saving up for another case and get the bigger, correct, more powerful motor in that car.
What happened with the intake issue?

I spoke to Melanie too ( like I said I would) She has no problem with you calling her if you want. She'd be more then willing to help if some history is needed.

[beetlejessica]

Hi guys. Thanks so much for all the help so far.

Today, we picked up a package of M8 x 1.25 nuts but we figured after the dismay of yesterday that we'd take a good 24 hrs off to calm down before going back in to have a look. A little rest usually does us good after we discover a problem. Based on what we saw yesterday, we can answer GlennA: it definitely does look like the head stud sheared off but in 10,000 miles we've never heard any alarming noises and there was no damage or markings on the rockers to suggest anything smashing into them. There's also still some stud up over the nut....it's not flush with the head or the nut. The one thing we didn't do was tug on the stud to see if it's firmly in the case. That we'll have to check tomorrow. There definitely didn't seem to be enough stud left for us to "double nut" so we'll have to hope that with a little coaxing the nuts come off, the new ones go on and the rocker studs aren't stripped. If they are, we have new ones on the way from Bus Depot and they'll be here by Wednesday.

What started this whole taking off the rocker shaft thing was side play in one of the arms. Is it weird that once the shaft was off there wasn't any play but when we put it back on the play returned? Could this have something to do with the push rod at the base of that arm or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

And Raj, it feels good to post here....should have done it sooner. The JB Weld repair we did to the intake has been holding fine so far so we've just been keeping tabs on it rather than hunting down a new one. Other than that, we've been getting the car ready for winter....some rust treatment, got some gravel guards, Fluid Film application coming soon and all that jazz. That bigger engine sounds like a real good idea for the near future!

We'll update about our studs, nuts, and arms tomorrow. And again, thanks for everything so far!

[Glenn A]

The head stud is broken off with the nut still in place. For some reason it looks like the the top of the stud and the nut are missing on my screen. I see you dilema a little differently know. put the rockers back together and drive it till while you save up for an engine.

[mannys66]

I agree with Glenn A, how many of us are out there driving with heads that need to be retorqued and we never get it done. If it makes you feel better, just so you know exactly where you are, once you put that rocker together, have someone give your car a compression test, that way you have an idea how far off that side might be. And if it's safe to drive it around like that or not.

[beetlejessica]

sigh.

[Raj]

sigh.

lol

nice..... yeah... you'll fit in just fine.

[Glenn]

If you really want to fit in.

[beetlejessica]

Ha! Would you believe I tried looking for a Mets one first! Daniel grew up going to Mets games (and leaving early to "beat the traffic" because they stank...this was before '86 but that's all another story).



So with the rain over, we went out tonight with a headlamp to have a look and here's what we can report:

-The head stud with the sheared off end does not turn or jiggle by hand. It does, however, seem to be a bit longer than the other one. Perhaps it was "cut" a bit roughly before or after installation so it wouldn't hit the rocker shaft?

-There is side play in #1 exhaust rocker arm

-The boss or spacer on the rocker shaft around the rear stud is slightly cracked. Probably because of over-torquing with our crappy wrench. Replacement is on the way.

-The nuts WILL NOT come off the rocker studs as of yet. We were able to kind of "double nut" one of the studs but there were still three threads showing. There weren't enough free threads on the other one to get another nut on. That nut is torqued to about 10 even though it keeps spinning.

-We had to move the car for alternate-side parking and the valves/rocker arm/whatever is pretty loud. We'll continue to just drive for parking until we make our move.

-We figured that with the new boss/spacers on the way that after they get here we'll either take a chisel to the washer behind the nut and hopefully crack it and remove it so we can push the nut from behind and give it a bit of "traction" to grip some threads and come off. Failing that, we could take a chisel to the boss/spacer and get even more space behind the nut. We just hope it's not the rocker studs that are stripped b/c Bus Depot was out of them. How does all this sound as a procedure?

[Raj]

I get scared when I hear Chisel..... but I admire your ambition and the fact what you guys are doing it yourself! That's my style too. Keep us posted. Worse case, you yank the motor and replace the head.

[Glenn A]

-The nuts WILL NOT come off the rocker studs as of yet. We were able to kind of "double nut" one of the studs but there were still three threads showing. There weren't enough free threads on the other one to get another nut on. That nut is torqued to about 10 even though it keeps spinning.

Can you post a pic of this stud? Are you trying to double nut it with two additional nuts or are you using the spinning nut and one additional nut?

[beetlejessica]

Gosh, what a pain in the butt this has been.

GlennA, we didn't take a pic because we spent the better part of today just trying to get the rocker shaft off. The stud we were double nutting was no problem. After a little penetrating oil, the nut that would just spin came right off.

We spent hours on the other one. A nut splitter we bought was too big to fit between the rocker arms, the hacksaw we had was too fragile, we went at it with a chisel but didn't like how loud it was and finally after 4 hours we broke down, bought a Dremel and had the damn thing off in about 10 minutes (which was about how long it took to reshim the rocker arms after we brought it all inside). The stud on this side is in pretty bad shape and seems stripped which is not good and we're gonna have to buy new studs. Does anyone know of a temporary fix we could use until we can get them? Even with next-day shipping we won't have them until Tuesday at the earliest and we'll need to drive the car at least to park it which means we'll have to drive around the block a few times at 20mph and under, not high rpm stuff. Or does anyone happen to have a spare and feel like meeting us at a mutually agreeable LIRR stop...?

[Glenn A]

New hyde park station. Platform A. West most stairs. Look for the green tape on the fence near the "watch the gap sign".

[beetlejessica]

For real??? Will they still be there in the morning?

[Glenn A]

Probably. Unless someone reading this grabs it first.

[beetlejessica]

Hmm...someone on this site, or someone who saw a strange man taping metal objects to a fence and decided to heed the MTA's "If you see something, say something" campaign...

But seriously, we're going to arrive at 9:23am, so I doubt anyone will pick them up before then. It is tremendously nice of you to leave them!!! How did you have time to get over there and do that? Are you the station master? And how can we ever repay you, apart from naming all of our kids "Glenn A"?

[Glenn A]

It's only down the block and I was heading across town to pick up some chinese food anyway. The last time someone "said something" in the MTA system he got his ass kicked by 3 guys while on video. After that it went right back to "See something. Look the other way and shut as usual policy".

Payback? Just get the car running so you don't get a ticket.

[Raj]

New hyde park station. Platform A. West most stairs. Look for the green tape on the fence near the "watch the gap sign".

this so rocked!

[Big_kid]

Yet another reason I love this site. Just reading this even made ME smile.

Way to pay it forward.